15: Codependency And Soul Alignment Explained With Darlene Lancer

Maureen Spielman: 00:00:00

Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is

Maureen Spielman: 00:00:02

Maureen Spielman, your host today I interview Darlene

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Lancer. She's a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist

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out of Santa Monica, California. Our conversation is riveting. If

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you asked me, we talk about codependency and shame and we go

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into a bit about dream work as well. Darlene has just a really

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long list of blogs. She's published several books, and

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she's a seasoned therapist. This episode is full of not only of

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her wisdom, from being a psychologist, but also her own

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lived experience. So please listen in to the end. And also

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if you have interest in joining us on the mystical sisterhood

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community platform, we'd love to see you there. We're building a

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community of women on a journey of self reclamation, and the

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work can be found at www.mystical sisterhood.com To

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find out more. Let me know if you have any questions and enjoy

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the episode.

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Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is your host,

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Maureen Spielman and today I am with Darlene Lancer. I'm very

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excited about this interview. Darlene came into my world

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unbeknownst to her, probably in the last one or two months where

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I had discovered her work online. Darlene is a licensed

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Marriage and Family Therapist, and has a very to me wide body

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of work on a number of subjects. She has written a few books,

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including codependency for Dummies, and conquering shame

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and codependency eight steps to freeing the to you and dating

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loving and leaving a narcissist. I was drawn to many of these

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subjects when I asked Darlene to come on the podcast. Today, we

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are specifically going to be looking at codependency and soul

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alignment. So with that, I want to say welcome to you, Darlene.

Maureen Spielman: 00:02:14

And thanks for being here.

Darlene Lancer: 00:02:16

Thank you so much for inviting me Your show

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is really intriguing to me, because I'm very interested in

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in the soul. And I think that also relates to recovery. And

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it's been a personal journey of mine as well.

Maureen Spielman: 00:02:34

I hear you. And I just when we've talked the

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other day pre recording the podcast, you know, you kind of

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delve into some of your story. But if I just said, Okay,

Maureen Spielman: 00:02:47

Darlene, let's begin at the beginning. What comes to you and

Maureen Spielman: 00:02:51

where would you like to begin today's interview?

Darlene Lancer: 00:02:55

Well, the beginning was my interest in the

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psyche when I was a little girl. So I first saw this story. I

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:05

think that's the title of this story of Bridey Murphy. And it

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was about a woman who went to see a psychiatrist for some

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problems, or no, maybe it was just a friend that was

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hypnotizing her. And she discovered she had past lives.

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:22

And I thought that was really interesting. And then I saw the

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three faces of Eve. And that was about someone with a multiple

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:29

personality disorder. I was just a little girl at that time,

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maybe not even 10 years old. And then I read my brother's medical

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book because he was in medical school by Sigmund Freud, Freud's

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:45

interpretation of dreams, which is a huge volume. And I was

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reading it with a flashlight in a bed at night. And I was like

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:54

so absorbed in it. And I used to really be fascinated by my

Darlene Lancer: 00:03:59

dreams. And they were like, fairy tales to me. And I would

Darlene Lancer: 00:04:03

plan them and like revel in them. So I was very interested

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in them. Then as I got older, I read Carl Jung in high school

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and college and my whole world expanded and I decided I wanted

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to be a psychologist, way back then. And I got sidetracked and

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became a lawyer. Quite the opposite. And then part of my

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recovery was journeying back to what I originally wanted to do,

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which was be a writer and be a therapist. And so that's what

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eventually I did.

Maureen Spielman: 00:04:43

It's beautiful. Yeah, when you talk

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about those early years of your life, first of all, it's so

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striking that the memories of all the curiosity I feel like

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there was curiosity and creativity in there with

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curiosity and your waking hours to explore and discover and then

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that creativity that sort of came out in your dreams, it

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feels like

Darlene Lancer: 00:05:08

yeah, I also was introduced to the work of JB

Darlene Lancer: 00:05:15

Rhine when I was about nine years old. Because my brother

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had a book on it and told me about it. And he was doing

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research at York University. This is decades ago, it was very

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early in the field. And I guess I read the book, and I started

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testing my paranormal ability bilities. And I think like, my

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siblings, were kind of playing with me. And I would like try to

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guess, you know, what card that they were picking out of a pile

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or what number they were thinking of? Maybe they were

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playing along. Oh, I know, intuited what they were thinking

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or finding. So I was very interested in then. I was having

Darlene Lancer: 00:06:03

psychic dreams when I was a teenager. Were kind of blew my

Darlene Lancer: 00:06:07

mind. Yeah, I was always interested in spirit and, and,

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you know, other worldly things.

Maureen Spielman: 00:06:17

And, and it feels like a lot of self

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discovery alongside that. And when you are talking about your

Maureen Spielman: 00:06:24

younger years, I heard you say a couple times, just in the

Maureen Spielman: 00:06:27

introduction here, that you changed careers. I think you

Maureen Spielman: 00:06:32

said it after recovery. Do you want to go into that a little

Maureen Spielman: 00:06:34

bit?

Darlene Lancer: 00:06:36

Okay, well, I was a lawyer for many years

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entertainment lawyer, and I wasn't happy on it, although I

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was successful. And I was more interested in reading about

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spirituality and psychology and things like that, rather than

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the latest, you know, things happening in my field or those

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cases. And that was kind of boring to me. And I have a

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friend said to me, you know, why don't I? Psychology is one of

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the options or a few others that I was exploring. And she said,

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:18

Why don't I volunteer at this local clinic? That allowed pure

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:24

cons counselors to do counseling? And I did, and I was

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:29

like, Oh, my God, I feel like I've come home. Wow. And I

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decided to return to graduate school and get another degree.

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:37

And I told the dean there when I was being interviewed, it was

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:42

like, taking heart vitamins. was very different from practicing

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:47

law. Yes. And then I actually, after I made the decision, I

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:51

remembered, I forgotten, that's what I wanted to do. So I

Darlene Lancer: 00:07:56

actually remembered that that was when I wanted to do as a

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kid, and I think I decided not to because back then, psychology

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didn't have such a good reputation was a little bit out,

Darlene Lancer: 00:08:12

considered kind of flaky. So I thought I'd want to be a

Darlene Lancer: 00:08:18

psychiatrists. But it's sort of eight years of, you know,

Darlene Lancer: 00:08:22

graduate work. Oh, I could never stick to it. So I'll become a

Darlene Lancer: 00:08:27

lawyer. Right. So a few years.

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:31

It makes me laugh. Darlene because I had

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:34

gone into nursing, my first two years in college. And it was a

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time when I had a couple aunts who were nurses. And they said,

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:42

Oh, Maureen, it's not a great profession right now. Because it

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was the landscape was really shifting. And so I said, okay,

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:50

and I just switched to of all things, political science. So it

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:55

took me years to say like, wait a minute, that's not for me, it

Maureen Spielman: 00:08:58

sort of reminds me of your diversion into a

Darlene Lancer: 00:09:04

political science was my undergraduate

Darlene Lancer: 00:09:06

isn't really Yeah. And I wanted to be a diplomat. And then

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during the Vietnam War, I got so turned off to the State

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Department, and the war effort and all of that, that I thought,

Darlene Lancer: 00:09:20

oh, no, I couldn't, couldn't do that.

Maureen Spielman: 00:09:22

Yeah, I can see that. Right. I'm not

Maureen Spielman: 00:09:25

surprised to hear you say that. So when you started going into

Maureen Spielman: 00:09:29

the field of psychology and in therapy, did you specialize

Maureen Spielman: 00:09:33

early? Or did you sort of feel your way out? Yeah.

Darlene Lancer: 00:09:38

As I've written, I was married to an alcoholic

Darlene Lancer: 00:09:44

and I had been an Al Anon. And so I had begun my recovery

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sometime much earlier. And actually that at led to my My

Darlene Lancer: 00:10:00

career change started to uncover who I really was. And my divorce

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all of that came out of my work and trusted programs working on

Darlene Lancer: 00:10:14

myself. And I was becoming more of who I was meant to be. Which

Darlene Lancer: 00:10:21

I've written about is like Soul alignment, in my opinion. Yes.

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Getting back to your topic. And so I started doing therapy with

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clients. And I was writing blogs. And then John Wiley and

Darlene Lancer: 00:10:40

Sons approached me. They read my blog on our YouTube codependence

Darlene Lancer: 00:10:44

and asked me to write a book. Well, first, I had to compete

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with some other psychologists and authors. And they asked me,

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it was about writing a book on codependency for dummies. And I

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had to do an outline of it. And after I was, given this

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opportunity, I thought, oh my god, this is like, everything

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:09

I'm doing with clients. It's my own story. It's like I know it

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:14

inside out, but I never named it. It wasn't the name I had

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written, read about codependency but it wasn't as popularized and

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:27

interest at meetings. In the Al Anon meeting I was in, they

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:33

didn't talk about psychological terms. That was kind of frowned

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upon way back then. Fortunately, it's much more widespread, known

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:47

to people talk about PTSD and trauma, and intimacy issues and

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:52

mental illness. All of that is much more out in the open. But

Darlene Lancer: 00:11:58

back in those days, it wasn't, and I think, coder meetings

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codependency anonymous. They were just getting off the

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ground. It was a very new program. So I wasn't labeling

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:19

what I was doing or my journey. But once I was given the

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:23

opportunity to write the book, I thought, yes. And I wrote such a

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:28

comprehensive outline, and, you know, first chapter that they

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:34

immediately gave me then they gave me the position. And then I

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:40

wrote that book. And I was asked to write about 300 pages 280 or

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:49

something. And I didn't know how I could write that much. And I

Darlene Lancer: 00:12:53

ended up writing like, 325 or something like way over? Yeah.

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:00

They thought it's so good. They wanted they expanded the book.

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:04

Right? And I didn't second edition a few years later, and

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:08

Hazleton asked me to write a book on shame and codependency.

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:12

Because they Brene Brown was one of their authors, and her book

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:19

on shame was successful. And they read my blog on shame as

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:23

the core of codependency. And, actually, the blog was shame as

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:28

the core of addiction. I think it underlies codependency and

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:32

addiction, and you can consider codependency, a form of

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:35

addiction to Yeah, and so they hired me to write that book. So

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:39

those were, so my career as an author was really launched. And

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then I was writing my own books, self publishing my own books,

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:48

and recently wrote one on narcissism. And I find it

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:53

interesting because my background and codependency and

Darlene Lancer: 00:13:56

shame comes together. It just folds together when you talk

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:04

about narcissism, because shame underlines narcissism, it

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:09

underlies codependency and it brings it all together because

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:16

in my perspective, narcissists are codependent too, which is

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:20

kind of a minority view, but there is some research on that.

Maureen Spielman: 00:14:23

Yeah, if you were to say, I know I was

Maureen Spielman: 00:14:27

reading one of your blog posts and it you had said that there

Maureen Spielman: 00:14:31

are many different definitions of codependency and I was

Maureen Spielman: 00:14:36

wondering, what is your definition?

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:39

Okay, well, it's someone who's thinking and

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:42

behavior revolve around something external. A process

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:51

which would be like gambling, sex addiction shopping,

Darlene Lancer: 00:14:57

substance like food or Alcohol, drugs or another person, which

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:04

includes codependency. And as someone who doesn't, they do

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:09

that because they can't access their innate self. Okay? So

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:14

recovery is about recovering your relationship with yourself.

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:19

And due to dysfunctional parenting or early trauma, that

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:24

connection gets interrupted. It's like the hardware is there,

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:27

but the software isn't. So we have all the wiring, we just

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:31

have to start to turn our focus back to ourselves and learn to

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:37

access and identify our feelings or needs, get our voice back

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:43

because a lot of it is learning and learning new skills, you

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:49

know, it's damaged self esteem due to shaming and we can raise

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:54

our self esteem is dysfunctional communication, we can learn to

Darlene Lancer: 00:15:59

be assertive. Okay,

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:00

yeah, I like listening to your description,

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:03

and even how you started with the terms of shame codependency,

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:09

narcissism, but with the one term that I've heard more

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:14

recently, I feel like codependent is a term that I've

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:17

heard over the years. And then it reminds me of that term and

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:22

mash men also have when you're just so deeply enmeshed with

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:28

something on the outside, how does one know that either maybe

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:32

their parents, would they have something codependent, I guess,

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:35

with another person in their life? How would you kind of know

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:39

that about yourself? Is it just that through such a loss of

Maureen Spielman: 00:16:43

sense of self?

Darlene Lancer: 00:16:45

Well, I'll give you an example. When I was, I

Darlene Lancer: 00:16:48

was very independent. As a teenager, I traveled through

Darlene Lancer: 00:16:51

Europe by myself, I would go to plays and opera by myself. When

Darlene Lancer: 00:16:57

I was just like, 1617, then I got married. And it was very

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:04

odd, I noticed that. And my husband was not in a home

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:12

drinking or watching TV or whatever he was doing. I wanted

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:16

to take our child to the park. And I did that with our my first

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:24

child. And then by the time my second child was born, if my

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:27

husband wouldn't go with me, I didn't go. If I wanted to watch

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:32

a TV show, and he said, No, I'm going to bed, I would just go to

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:35

bed, I wouldn't stay up and watch it. So I just noticed,

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:41

observe this in myself, this is just very strange. I didn't know

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:45

why or what it was, or how that happened. But I was gradually

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:50

losing my autonomy, and my voice. And that's one example.

Darlene Lancer: 00:17:56

And others just low self esteem. You might not know you have low

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:02

self esteem, a lot of people think they have good self

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:05

esteem, when they really don't. And most people are not too

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:09

conscious of their inner talk. So I tell people, you know how

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:14

you talk, talk and think about yourself reflects your self

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:18

esteem. Whether you trust yourself, whether you can make

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:22

decisions, or you're very confused or ask other people

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:30

can't make decisions. Those are signs of lack of self trust. So

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:34

pay attention to your inner talk. If you put yourself down

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:38

is I shouldn't have done that. I should do that. Be very

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:41

indecisive and fearful to take positions. Are you easily

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:46

persuaded by someone else is the opinion. Yeah, are afraid to

Darlene Lancer: 00:18:53

speak out. On unsure of how you what you think about things that

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:00

shows a weak sense of self.

Maureen Spielman: 00:19:04

It feels like

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:06

shaming yourself. Do you tell when you

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:08

listen to yourself? Talk? Do you put yourself down? Yeah, feel

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:11

inferior in most codependents if they're really honest with

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:16

themselves, then maybe hard to admit that the they're afraid

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:21

people don't like okay, yeah. Well, those

Maureen Spielman: 00:19:24

are really good examples. And it becomes

Maureen Spielman: 00:19:29

more clear to me I feel like probably a codependent would

Maureen Spielman: 00:19:32

have poor boundaries.

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:35

Yeah, so the other signs are you focus on

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:38

someone else. And you're always thinking like, I was always

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:41

wondering, what is my husband? You know, what's he going to do

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:45

next? Or, you know, how can I not upset him? Yeah, so if

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:52

you're it was an abusive relationship. So it really comes

Darlene Lancer: 00:19:56

out in you know, check the color when you're with The abuser

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:00

because you don't feel safe. And you probably it was this way

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:03

with appearance where you didn't want to get in trouble. So you

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:10

become hyper vigilant. So it starts with trying to please or

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:17

stay safe with a parent, or get their attention if they're

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:21

unavailable. And so you're looking outwards. So I have a

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:25

blog and my website is like Paradise Lost, you know what,

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:32

what happened to my true self. Because a baby that has an

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:37

attentive, nurturing, caretaker, supposedly, the mother, usually,

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:44

you know, it can just feel in bliss. And know when it's

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:48

hungry, it'll be fed, when, when it'll be changed. And it's not

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:54

alone too long, it'll be held. But if the mother is not there,

Darlene Lancer: 00:20:59

or she comes, and she's tense, or rough with the baby, or

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:04

preoccupied or whatever, you know, that baby's gonna be

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:08

wondering, what is Mother's mood? And then you'd have to

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:11

know, you know, can Is it okay to cry? Or is it not? Or what

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:16

does she think and they start a tuning to the mother. And then

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:21

that gets worst, you know, when you you're a year old or

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:24

something, and you're your parent is on the phone or on the

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:28

cell phone all the time, rest, mores was fighting, or you know,

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:33

there's not enough food or money in stressed. So those are some

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:39

signs if you're trying to control it, not just watch your

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:42

partner, but to kind of control them and tell them what to do

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:45

and change them. So you're more focused on changing your

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:48

partner, then yourself, which I was when I was told that I had a

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:53

problem and she could step meetings, I was insulted. I

Darlene Lancer: 00:21:59

don't have a problem. That's my husband. And you mentioned in

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:02

measurement, and boundaries. So the sign of a measurement is

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:07

like when you're overreacting. You take in whatever someone

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:13

says you think it's true. The The other was when you don't

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:19

have clear ideas. Another one that's is very can be very

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:25

subtle is your React. So if your partner is angry, you think Oh,

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:31

I'm in trouble. I did something wrong. Yeah. If your partner's

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:35

sad, you think, what did I do to upset them? Or they say they're

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:39

sad. And then you think, Oh, I guess I'm not doing a good

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:45

spouse or

Maureen Spielman: 00:22:46

something. Yeah. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:48

angry. You think what? Yeah, so you're

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:50

overreacting to everything. You can't let the other person have

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:53

their own feelings. Yeah. And you don't have your own

Darlene Lancer: 00:22:56

feelings. It's all mixed up. You get confused. What do I feel

Darlene Lancer: 00:23:01

good feeling? Or am I? Yeah, it's all mishmash. Yeah,

Darlene Lancer: 00:23:07

codependents can have rigid boundaries, or a parent that's

Darlene Lancer: 00:23:10

unavailable. Instead of investment, they're neglected.

Darlene Lancer: 00:23:15

So it could be the opposite. Or you don't let anybody in you

Darlene Lancer: 00:23:18

don't get close to people. Yeah, it's self protected. Hmm,

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:23

yeah. I can see. Shades of my former self

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:27

and a lot of this. Darlene and I think that you're right, when

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:32

it's really, we're not brought up with the emotional language.

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:36

And so sometimes, even when something you said about self

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:41

esteem earlier, I thought was very interesting how we can have

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:45

a perception of ourselves that our self esteem or I think the

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:49

other word that sometimes kind of hard to grasp or to

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:51

understand is around our worthiness. And you can have

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:55

these behaviors that someone may be a therapist might say, Well,

Maureen Spielman: 00:23:58

do you feel worthy? And you Oh, yeah, I feel completely worthy.

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:02

But it's such a, the worthiness I feel like it's such a core

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:06

piece of part of us, that you're saying kind of gets lost, not

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:10

kind of it does get lost along the way through our experiences.

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:13

And that's no matter how it shows up for us. That's, I feel

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:17

like that's pretty much for everybody in some way. We've

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:19

given away parts of ourselves. So, but great examples that

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:24

you're providing about how it shows up. And it seems like we

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:29

could also fall somewhere on a continuum. Oh, I have to say

Maureen Spielman: 00:24:34

that any of these terms.

Darlene Lancer: 00:24:36

And it's hard to know also because denial is a

Darlene Lancer: 00:24:40

symptom. So people say how can I help my partner is so

Darlene Lancer: 00:24:46

codependent Well, if your code is your partner's codependent,

Darlene Lancer: 00:24:50

chances are you are too. So I had an argument with my editor,

Darlene Lancer: 00:24:55

but I wrote the conquering shame because they were Very linear

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:03

Anna no rigid in their thinking and they thought because as I

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:10

told you my definition includes addicts they said I added can't

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:14

be codependent because they're in a relationship with a

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:17

codependent so how can an addict be codependent? Well, if you

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:21

talk to addicts who are in recovery, they will admit

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:24

they're codependent. Maybe first it's with a drug or something.

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:29

Alcohol and then underneath that in a when they're getting into a

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:32

relationship. They have intimacy problems, they have all the same

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:37

issues. Yeah. And I explained that in my book other signs are

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:43

irrational guilt. Did you feel guilty all the time,

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:47

perfectionism. Those come from those are defenses to shame. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:53

of course dependency insight. My example about not going to the

Darlene Lancer: 00:25:57

park you become dependent on summer. Yes, Your worth is in

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:02

taking care of so maybe codependence think it comes from

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:06

the shame to they think if someone loves me, then I'm

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:10

lovable. Well, that's a false beliefs. Are I have to be

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:15

perfect to be loved. Yeah, I have to be flawless to be loved.

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:21

You're lovable for who you are. Not sure what you do. Or not

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:26

just because someone else loves you. But is there a lot of

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:29

people that won't like you're in love you that doesn't make you

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:31

unwell. Right? Yes. And it is the the

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:34

reclamation of our worth. So when you begin to work with

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:40

people or even for our listeners today, and if they see shades of

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:44

themselves in what you're saying or in their life somewhere?

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:48

What's the beginning steps to kind of begin to reclaim

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:52

yourself?

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:54

Yeah, well, codependency for Dummies is laid

Darlene Lancer: 00:26:57

out like a treatment plan.

Maureen Spielman: 00:26:58

Is that okay? So,

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:00

but one of the first things I tell people's

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:03

start journaling, you know, read all you can about him, go to

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:09

Codependents Anonymous meetings, if there's an addict in your

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:13

life go to or appearance, even if they're dead now, but if

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:17

you're a child of addict, or alcohol addict includes any kind

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:22

of addiction, go to Al Anon meetings to and learn all you

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:28

can and start paying attention to yourself talk, as I said,

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:32

Okay, identifying that, and there's so many blogs at my

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:39

website to start identifying your beliefs. Learn how to name

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:43

your feelings, I wasn't able to identify my feelings as a

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:49

beginner. So if your parents is one of their jobs is to help you

Darlene Lancer: 00:27:54

identify feelings and mirror you.

Maureen Spielman: 00:27:56

Yes, yes. It reminds me something you're

Maureen Spielman: 00:27:59

saying of how people and and you know, some of the people that

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:04

you're referring to are people like us who have had experiences

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:09

is that idea that, you know, you are traumatized to some degree,

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:14

and then your your fight or flight is activated. But that

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:18

idea of you're kind of it feels like codependence are sometimes

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:22

scanning their environment, just to you may have mentioned that

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:25

just to see the reaction of, they're just not on high alert,

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:30

and highly alert to others reactions and dictating their

Maureen Spielman: 00:28:36

then responsive behavior.

Darlene Lancer: 00:28:39

Right, you know, you point out something

Darlene Lancer: 00:28:40

interesting. And now there's all this new research on trauma,

Darlene Lancer: 00:28:46

PTSD, and the nervous system wasn't around like 30 years ago.

Darlene Lancer: 00:28:53

Or it wasn't popular say that. But it wasn't until I was in a

Darlene Lancer: 00:28:59

really safe relationship, where I realized that I never felt

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:03

safe. Yeah. And that is a problem for codependence because

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:09

they don't feel safe. In there, they might say, Oh, I I felt

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:13

loved but that doesn't mean that you felt safe. Yeah. Or that you

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:18

actually got the love kind of love you need it because a

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:21

parent has to go into this in conquering shame and

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:26

codependency. A parent has to want a relationship with your

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:31

True Self with who you really are. Yeah. And it's not enough

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:35

to say I love you, or buy you whatever you want or need. They

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:39

will have to want to spend time with you and listen to you and

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:42

support you as an individual, not the idea of what they want

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:47

you to be not because you get good grades or or an athlete or

Darlene Lancer: 00:29:53

any of that. SO and SO. We often are Trying striving to become

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:01

that ideal that our parent wanted. And we lose our true

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:06

self. And anyway, so you may not have felt safe to be yourself,

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:14

or to speak your mind or whatever it was as a as a child,

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:17

and then you get into relationships that are similar.

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:22

And then a lot of and this also applies to abusive narcissistic

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:27

relationships, especially. So you date someone. And of course,

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:33

you don't know that they're an abuser, a narcissist in the

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:35

beginning. They're very romantic and charming. So what happens is

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:42

that many people confuse excitement and insecurity. So

Darlene Lancer: 00:30:54

they don't realize that they don't feel safe. Yes. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:31:02

there's some apprehension there. And it's not that the person is

Darlene Lancer: 00:31:06

going to hit you. It's that you can't say, No, I don't feel like

Darlene Lancer: 00:31:10

doing that, or don't touch me. Hmm, saying no. You know, right.

Darlene Lancer: 00:31:18

You want to get along go, you know, Kota ones want to go along

Darlene Lancer: 00:31:22

to get along.

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:22

Yeah. And it's, it's kind of, you're not

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:26

then going to give yourself the permission to do any of those

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:28

things. And when you talk about the safety, I know, in my

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:37

coaching classes with my teacher, Susie, Lulu, we talk a

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:40

lot about that idea of safety within your own consciousness.

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:44

And it reminds me of what you're saying about negative self talk.

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:48

And that, that, that can create a really just negative self self

Maureen Spielman: 00:31:55

loop that we're on, and that we're being called to create a

Maureen Spielman: 00:32:00

new relationship with ourselves and make it safe for ourselves

Maureen Spielman: 00:32:03

to land. So not like you're saying, like not shaming

Maureen Spielman: 00:32:07

ourselves, not guilting ourselves, not making ourselves

Maureen Spielman: 00:32:10

bad or wrong.

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:12

Right, you got to change that negative feedback

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:15

loop. I have examples of that my books, the positive feedback.

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:21

And just like you, you know, you can get into I call it a like,

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:27

the Wella shame, you fall into a well, and you can barely get

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:30

yourself out, you could hang out there for days, months, years or

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:34

your lifetime. Or you can create a positive, turn it around,

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:39

you're just reverse just reverse engineering. Right? Give

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:43

yourself positive self talk, because your unconscious,

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:47

believes what you say is very concrete and literal, as much as

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:51

if someone else's. But you have to say things that you believe

Darlene Lancer: 00:32:56

are true. Right? So yeah, that's the able to say, I love myself,

Darlene Lancer: 00:33:02

but you might be able to say, I'm, I want to love myself, I'm

Darlene Lancer: 00:33:08

working towards loving myself. There are things and there are

Darlene Lancer: 00:33:13

things that I like about myself. So it has to be you have to be

Darlene Lancer: 00:33:18

honest with yourself when you're saying make it positive.

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:21

And that seems to me to you just begin to let

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:26

the light in, if you were will allow yourself to just begin to

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:30

say those statements, you just said that. It's just just slowly

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:35

allowing a new experience. I had a question too. I'm thinking

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:41

that, of course, the coaches that I've trained with are

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:46

largely women, Darlene. And so what about men and this work? I

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:51

think that's a question I have, are they, as apt has women to

Maureen Spielman: 00:33:56

come to the work? I know it's as worthy. But any thoughts on

Maureen Spielman: 00:34:01

that?

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:02

Well, women tend to go into therapy more than

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:05

men. They tend to ruminate more and more towards depression.

Maureen Spielman: 00:34:12

Women, okay. And they

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:15

have been socialized to be is less less

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:20

today than in years past and in some many cultures and

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:24

religions, to be more subservient to romance and also

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:29

to be caretakers. Yeah, so there's more of a programming

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:34

towards codependence. Parents will encourage the independence

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:40

and autonomy of boys before girls. They're more fearful of

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:47

their daughters being hurt her getting pregnant and they'll

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:51

encourage their sons to take more risks. Okay, usually and

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:55

actually in the research, there's some blogs on my

Darlene Lancer: 00:34:59

website. on self esteem, they go into this girls are independent

Darlene Lancer: 00:35:07

and mature faster than boys when they're very young. But then by

Darlene Lancer: 00:35:11

the time they get into their late teens, the boys go ahead.

Darlene Lancer: 00:35:16

So now girls are thinking about, you know, being a partner. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:35:22

sometimes that's a priority, getting married, rather than

Darlene Lancer: 00:35:26

having a career or something.

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:28

Right, right. Yeah. And I see my daughter is

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:31

19. Now. And although things are changing, and we know that this

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:37

information is becoming more and more accessible, I think it's

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:41

just going to take decades to really make it a just a bigger

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:47

wave of change coming through, but we've got to start

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:50

somewhere. And you've been doing the work for quite some time. So

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:54

I love our this conversation today. Because it is so

Maureen Spielman: 00:35:57

educational. And I think when people listen to it, that they

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:01

just say like, oh, that's, I relate to that. And it can just

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:06

lead to the awakening, which is eventually the soul alignment I

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:10

wanted to also touch upon because when we met the other

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:14

day, I think we, I told you, oh, yeah, when you mentioned the

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:19

dreams, that I know, it's a little bit of a side path, but

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:24

how you've been so guided by dreams in your life. And I just

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:29

wanted you to share some of that with the audience. Because I

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:32

think it's a way we receive information or can that probably

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:38

has to do with our soul alignment. So I just thought it

Maureen Spielman: 00:36:41

was fascinating. You're living your life by your dreams.

Darlene Lancer: 00:36:45

Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, in anticipation of

Darlene Lancer: 00:36:49

our conversation I just posted on social media today. A blog

Darlene Lancer: 00:36:57

about dreams and as the doorway to the soul, soul. And Carl Jung

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:05

thought that it was like a hidden door to the deep

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:09

unconscious. And Freud said it's the royal road to the

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:14

unconscious. So you know, you can get guidance from your

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:17

dreams about relationships that you're in projects you're

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:23

undertaking warnings, they will lift you up when you're to down

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:28

and point out your when you're inflated. When you get to your

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:36

ego gets too big. And they will bring up things that need to be

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:41

healed. So I've done a lot of dream interpretation with

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:45

people. And I remember one woman, she was very happily

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:49

married and things were, you know, really on track in her

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:54

life. And she started having these strange dreams was I don't

Darlene Lancer: 00:37:58

remember the dream. But the interpretation was, it had to do

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:02

with abuse in her childhood that she never dealt with. But it

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:06

didn't come up until she finally felt safe. Wow. She had a loving

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:10

partner and everything was going great in life. And now it was

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:15

like now she felt safe enough to to have these dreams. And I

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:20

remember when I left my husband, who was also physically abusive.

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:28

I was about two weeks later and was in a safe place. And I had a

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:34

dream. I woke up in the middle of the night with a dream of I

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:40

don't remember if it was him or just somebody strangling me. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:43

I was like trying to scream. So I didn't have that one. I was

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:47

married. Yes. But once I was out of the house, it was like the

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:51

PTSD. You know, the dreams were like haunting me. And I had

Darlene Lancer: 00:38:56

dreams over the years of him. And they went from abuse to

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:05

fighting, standing up and fighting back. And then

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:08

eventually, like he was waiting on me and bringing our hours.

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:14

And I would say you know, he'd want a relationship with me, I'd

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:17

say no, thank you. Yeah. They Oh, there was a whole

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:22

metamorphosis as I was like healing inside and I had a

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:27

dream. Maybe I mentioned to you in the 90s that I would go into

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:33

the forest and like journal and reclaim title to myself. And

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:43

then I would write about it and share with others. So that was

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:47

like was my that was around 95 to 15 years before I got my book

Darlene Lancer: 00:39:57

contract. He did. Yeah, he doesn't.

Maureen Spielman: 00:40:03

Those are fascinating. You did. You did

Maureen Spielman: 00:40:06

mention the one too. You didn't tell me about the forest one,

Maureen Spielman: 00:40:09

but the one when you I think it was something around waking up

Maureen Spielman: 00:40:12

next to shame.

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:13

Oh, yeah. So I was teaching about self esteem

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:18

when I was a new therapist. And I didn't realize that I had

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:22

worked my own work to do. And I thought my self esteem was

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:29

pretty good. And then I put this in my book on shame. I had a

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:33

dream that I was sleeping next to a woman. Her name was shame.

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:37

And I wanted to kick her out of the bed. I didn't want to know

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:41

her. Right. So most people are not aware that they have shame.

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:47

It is not talked about much in Western cultures compared to

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:52

Asia, Latin America. I didn't know that. But it's definitely

Darlene Lancer: 00:40:56

is there just as much. We talk more about guilt, though, and

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:02

there's a big difference. I go into my book.

Maureen Spielman: 00:41:05

Yes. Okay. The dreams are fascinating. Do you

Maureen Spielman: 00:41:09

have practices to? Sounds like they come quite naturally to you

Maureen Spielman: 00:41:12

now. But when you talk to people about dreams, are there

Maureen Spielman: 00:41:15

practices that we can almost encourage dreams more within

Maureen Spielman: 00:41:19

ourselves? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Well,

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:23

so that's been? Well, if you're in therapy,

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:26

started talking about your dreams, and you'll start

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:28

dreaming more. Okay. But the main thing is like, before you

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:32

go to sleep, you know, ask virgin? No, I've asked for

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:35

guidance. And I had a lot of I've had a lot of pre cognitive

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:42

dreams that something was going to happen. And that didn't

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:44

happen. Yes. And guidance of how to handle things. Wow. Preparing

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:50

me so ask for a dream. And then this is very important. Before

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:56

when you start to wake up, train yourself to the first thought

Darlene Lancer: 00:41:59

is, what am I dreaming, don't Okay, your eyes, don't move,

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:04

don't turn over. Certainly don't get out of bed. And, and stay in

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:10

and try to recall your dream. Okay, that pencil and paper or

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:15

recording machine by you or your phone so you can record it

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:19

because you'll forget, if you get into your day too quickly.

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:24

You forget, if you have a habit of meditating, you might

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:26

remember, you wake up because you're closer to your

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:30

unconscious. Also, sometimes, I remember dreams in the shower.

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:37

And it was explained to me that the repetitive tapping the

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:42

water, choose your unconscious. So if you shower first thing,

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:48

you know, just don't think about your day ahead, just kind of

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:52

relax and close your eyes and see if you can recall what

Darlene Lancer: 00:42:57

you're dreaming of in the shower. I think that

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:00

that's always fascinating. When you have been

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:02

awake for a little bit. You, you have that realization of like,

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:06

oh my god, that was my dream, but all really good takeaways

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:11

for our dream world. And yeah, I do use my notes app. And my

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:16

daughter just bought me a dream journal for the holidays. But I

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:20

like writing them down. And I'll go back and look at them. And

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:24

I'll just have no recollection. Unless it was something that was

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:27

so standout ish. And yeah, I feel like I had one just last

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:33

night that was probably based on fear, a fear of mine. So I love

Maureen Spielman: 00:43:38

that. Darlene, we

Darlene Lancer: 00:43:41

want to say one other thing. Yes. If you're

Darlene Lancer: 00:43:45

starting to write down dreams, I highly recommend you to write it

Darlene Lancer: 00:43:49

down by hand. Okay, I highly recommend that you if you're

Darlene Lancer: 00:43:53

really interested in your dream, like to transfer it to a digital

Darlene Lancer: 00:43:59

copy a Word document or something because and I regret

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:02

that I haven't done this because you may want to search for

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:06

keywords as you might dream about, let's say a brother, or a

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:14

certain place or event. And, and then you go on to look you know,

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:19

I have like dozens of journals. Yes. And you know, I can't like

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:25

find where that dream wasn't. Sometimes I have dreams like a

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:28

sequel series. So if you have it digitally, you can always search

Darlene Lancer: 00:44:34

for a certain word. And that would be great.

Maureen Spielman: 00:44:39

Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. I love it. I

Maureen Spielman: 00:44:43

thank you so much for sharing such a I don't know just today

Maureen Spielman: 00:44:48

was great. You touched on so many things. I know I could talk

Maureen Spielman: 00:44:51

to you forever. you've named your blogs, but when the

Maureen Spielman: 00:44:56

listeners go to find you, where should they find you? Where can

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:00

they find you?

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:01

Well, they you just put my name and Google,

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:03

you'll find that I'm on all social media. I'm not on Tik

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:06

Tok, but I'm on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:11

Pinterest, and you have a YouTube channel. Okay. And most

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:17

of my podcasts are on the media page on my website. But it's

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:21

codependency.com. Or you can get there from Darlene lancer.com.

Darlene Lancer: 00:45:26

And there's more on like, Soul alignment. Okay, let's say,

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:32

Yes. I love it. Yeah, everything that you're

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:35

talking about today is noticing the patterns. How? How were we

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:40

nurtured or not nurtured as kids what, you know, as a result, how

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:45

did we kind of show up as adults and what kind of relationships

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:50

we came into being whether it's another person, a person or a

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:53

substance, but that eventually, the call will be to come back to

Maureen Spielman: 00:45:58

ourselves and that soul alignment that you're talking

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:00

about. And I just want to just thank you, again, for being here

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:05

and for also creating so many rich resources for people to

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:11

access because I was on what is codependency.com? And you've

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:16

just provided, I mean, there are just 10s upon 10s, if not

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:21

hundreds of blog posts where people can just go learn and

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:24

they're, and they're not exactly bite sized. They're a little bit

Maureen Spielman: 00:46:28

longer, but they allow you to learn more about yourself.

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:32

Thank you. Yes, I have over 200 blogs. I also

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:36

blog on medium. Okay, people there are so yes. Okay, yeah, I

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:41

like to educate, and I try to keep my prices low. So more

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:46

people can access my materials and all my books, all my books

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:51

and work. Ebooks are workbooks. So there's exercises there where

Darlene Lancer: 00:46:56

you can do you know, self help and people right, reduce telling

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:03

you that doing so really has changed their lives. So yeah,

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:07

well, and it surprises me.

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:11

I think even for all the coaches out there

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:14

listening today that there are great resources and therapists

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:18

for the your prep your practices to go deeper and learn more,

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:21

because a lot of therapists are using my books. I

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:24

find it

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:25

Yeah, beautiful. Okay, Darlene, thank

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:28

you so much. And I will include all your resources in the show

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:31

notes of the episode. And to the listeners. Thank you for being

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:36

here. And we'll see you next time.

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:39

We're gonna thank you, marine. You're

Darlene Lancer: 00:47:41

terrific host it's been real fun.

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:43

Ah, thank you. Bye.

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:50

Thanks for listening to this episode of mystical sisterhood.

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:53

If you love what you heard, please visit Apple podcasts, and

Maureen Spielman: 00:47:57

subscribe and leave a review and share with a friend if you're

Maureen Spielman: 00:48:00

called to do so. To learn more about my one on one coaching

Maureen Spielman: 00:48:03

programs, or join the mystical sisterhood membership, visit

Maureen Spielman: 00:48:07

Maureenspielman.com or mysticalsisterhood.com Thanks so

Maureen Spielman: 00:48:11

much. I'll see you in the next episode.